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Engine rebuild with no former experience........

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5 Jahre 10 Monate her #262819 von Racediagnostics
Hi JP, I did a compression test and had a go at a leakdown test but got inconsistent results, seemed perfect and when repeated seemed to be leaking, I guess you need some experience to get good consistent results.

A set of new pistons and liners would be nice but not really worth it for me and the car.

I am going to investigate the three angle valve job.

Cheers
Jim

1979 450SL - 2008 911 Turbo

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5 Jahre 10 Monate her #262821 von Racediagnostics
Next I went on to measuring the rod bolts and basic bore with and without the old bearings.

The rod bolts all measure within spec which is 8.0mm minimum (original size is 8.4mm), they were all ~>8.3mm.



The rod measurements were taken with and without the bearing shells. Using the basic bore sizes and thickness of new bearing shells I can also predict the likely sized when new shells are fitted.



These are the crankshaft measurements for the main bearings and crankpin bearings. Again, using the basic bore sizes and thickness of new bearing shells I can also predict the likely sized when new shells are fitted.



Now using the measurements of the crankshaft main bearings and crankpin bearings I can calculate the clearance with the old bearings and what it will likely be with the new bearings.



As the crankpins measured up ok I went ahead and ordered new standard size big end bearings today, I already bought a set of main bearings some time ago.

Next I will start working on the heads.

Cheers
Jim

1979 450SL - 2008 911 Turbo

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5 Jahre 10 Monate her #262825 von Dieseldok
Hello Jim,

yes I agree doing the same measurement/ check twice and receiving inconsistent results does not make it easier to decide on next steps.

Please find attached a link in respect of flex honing in case your machine shop is hesitant to prep the current liner for the new rings.

blog.brushresearch.com/how-flexible-honi...for-cylinder-sleeves

Liner surface needs to be prepared for the new rings, then the cast iron rings should work good after some running in time.


Usually the Mercedes head should have already a 3 angle valve design.
Just „grinding“ the seats with compound can be ok, you could check with a leak down/ vacuum tester if the seat and valve are leak free.

johnmaherracing.com/tech-talk/3-angle-valve-job/

But I would go for a valve seat cut in the head/ 3 angle design and recut the sealing surface of the valve.
Then the valve and seat are matched with a little use of grinding compound and function is tested with leak down/ vacuum test.
You can use your vacuum device for brake bleeding. Just check if the vacuum remains.

Finally I would check if manifold and head are matching. If not this is an easy way to gain some cheap hp just by matching manifold/ head and gasket with out restrictions.
Nothing to do wrong just check for sufficient wall thickness upfront before you start grinding.

Porting goes deeper into the head , but this is different story and opens another can full of worms.


Kind regards


JP
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5 Jahre 10 Monate her #262916 von Racediagnostics
I started off today removing the old piston rings and checking the wrist pin clearances.





Good news, all the wrist pins were in spec.



As were the rod bush and piston bushes.





Next I started cleaning the cam shaft bearings and the pistons in a degreaser, they cleaned up fairly easily, despite being cleaned in a cold solution at about 6 decC, the weather turned colder today.







Next I measured all the cam towers....



...and the cam shaft journals.


Cheers
Jim

1979 450SL - 2008 911 Turbo
Folgende Benutzer bedankten sich: Chromix

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5 Jahre 10 Monate her #262917 von Racediagnostics
Now the bad news.

The cam bearing clearance are out of spec, the left (from the front of car) bank just over, the right bank worse. New bearing sets are NLA from MB and ~600 a side at places that still have stock.



Well that is a pita, I will remeasure tomorrow but don't really expect them to be any different. I will search the web tonight to see what I can find.

To take my mind off this I moved on to stripping the heads, but this valve spring compressor wouldn't fit into the valve springs so will pick up a conventional one tomorrow.


Cheers
Jim

1979 450SL - 2008 911 Turbo

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5 Jahre 10 Monate her #262921 von Racediagnostics
Does anyone know if undersized cam tower bearings are available at any suppliers in Germany?

Cheers
Jim

1979 450SL - 2008 911 Turbo

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5 Jahre 10 Monate her #262923 von Gullydeckel
Hi Jim,

removing the valve springs is perfect by this way:

That's how I'm doing that since decades.

Regarding the "bearing-problem": Is the calculated play too high or do you see some wear/damage? Instead of measuring all parts separate, sometime it's more useful to evaluate the play of the assembly and/or compare with the assembly of the other parts which seems to be better/good. Unless you didn't noticed any functional problem or noise up to today and all bearing surfaces are OK it may be still good for doing what it was designed for.

Regards Martin

Ich bin jetzt in dem Alter wo ich meine Fehler zugeben könnte - wenn ich welche hätte
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5 Jahre 10 Monate her - 5 Jahre 10 Monate her #262942 von Racediagnostics
Hi Martin, I should make more progress today with this.



Here are a couple of close ups of the worst bearing above cylinder 8, looks like there has been plenty of metal on metal contact.





I think I could live with the wear on the left side but would like to find an oversize set of bearings for the right side.

Cheers
Jim

1979 450SL - 2008 911 Turbo
Letzte Änderung: 5 Jahre 10 Monate her von Racediagnostics.

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5 Jahre 10 Monate her - 5 Jahre 10 Monate her #262991 von Racediagnostics
I have been searching for a set of oversized cam bearings so that I could grind the cam, however I don't seem to be able to find any in stock and they are NLA at MB, so it looks like I will need to buy both a standard bearing set and new CAM, ouch!

I got back into the garage this afternoon and started work on the first head.





It was easy to remove the collets as the tool locked in place.



Six months ago I glued this valve guide in place with high temp loctite, it held for most of the summer but I started getting a puff of smoke on start up again in September, it must have worked its way loose again then.



Into a bath of hot degreaser.



Once it had heated up I took the opportunity to remove the remainder of the valve guides.





Washed and dried.



I will remove the broken bolt from this tomorrow....



....and clean up the valves.


Cheers
Jim

1979 450SL - 2008 911 Turbo
Letzte Änderung: 5 Jahre 10 Monate her von Racediagnostics.
Folgende Benutzer bedankten sich: Marcel, Gullydeckel, Chromix

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5 Jahre 10 Monate her #263008 von Gullydeckel
Hi Jim,

your progress is breathtaking!
Did you pounded out the old guides with the hammer? This can be done much softer...
Before you plan to insert the new guides, take a look to the pictures. Getting those parts fitted well needs some prepartion to meet the best fit alignement to the bore. The better the alignement is, the less work on the valve seat is necessary later on.

Cheers Martin


Ich bin jetzt in dem Alter wo ich meine Fehler zugeben könnte - wenn ich welche hätte
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5 Jahre 10 Monate her #263032 von T-Modell
Hi Jim,
it's an interesting British Standard version of a hot bath ;-) ... did your house-internal H&S officer approve that? ;-)

Good luck with your rebuild!
Thomas
Folgende Benutzer bedankten sich: Racediagnostics

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5 Jahre 10 Monate her #263036 von Dieseldok
Hello Jim,

quick question: Where did you bought the yellow tray?

Kind regards

JP

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5 Jahre 10 Monate her #263064 von Racediagnostics
Hi Thomas, Kim will be wondering where the cup boilers have gone.;)

Cheers
Jim

1979 450SL - 2008 911 Turbo
Folgende Benutzer bedankten sich: T-Modell

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5 Jahre 10 Monate her #263065 von Racediagnostics

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5 Jahre 10 Monate her - 5 Jahre 10 Monate her #263067 von Racediagnostics
Too busy to get out to the garage today, but did do some more measuring of the old and new valve guides and the head valve guide bores.

The valve guide situation is a bit odd, in EPC the original size that was used is no longer available and has been replaced by a fractionally bigger set, EPC refers to these as "repair stage 1", whereas in the workshop manual there is no mention of the original size, it refers to the EPC stage 1 as the "standard dimension". I think that at some stage when Mercedes realised that they had a problem with loose valve guides they dropped the original size and adopted the 1st oversize as the standard replacement.

Here are the old and new guides, I also purchased a single EPC oversize 2 in case I needed it for the problems I had on the intake of cylinder 1.



You can see here that the old cylinder 1 valve guide easily slips into the head.



The good news after doing all the measurement is that I wont need to bore out the head for the "oversize 2" valve guide as it is well within the recommend overlap.



Still got to check the other head but don't expect any issues there.

Next I did an inspection of all the valve seats for damage, good news again there, there were no chips or damage. They are supposed to have a 3 angle grind but its not very obvious.

Cylinder 1 exhaust



Cylinder 1 intake.



The remainder of the valve seats on the first head were the same.

Cheers
Jim

1979 450SL - 2008 911 Turbo
Letzte Änderung: 5 Jahre 10 Monate her von Racediagnostics.

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5 Jahre 10 Monate her #263076 von Racediagnostics

Gullydeckel schrieb: Hi Jim,
Getting those parts fitted well needs some prepartion to meet the best fit alignement to the bore. The better the alignement is, the less work on the valve seat is necessary later on.

Cheers Martin


Hi Martin, I will use your more gentle method for the installation. Did you have any thoughts on the picture of the close up picture of the CAM and bearing?

Cheers
Jim

1979 450SL - 2008 911 Turbo

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5 Jahre 9 Monate her - 5 Jahre 9 Monate her #263173 von Racediagnostics
I spent a long time in the garage today but made limited progress.

First I stripped down the second head.



The tray is now full!



Next was a lot of scrubbing in the hot degreaser bath.



I then checked both heads for flatness, both were good. but both heads don't look great, do you think they will seal ok or do they need skimmed?



Next I went back to the sheared bolt on the first head.



Built up with weld.



Then nut welded on.



I managed to get the bolt turning but had to go through this process a lot of times. I think the thread has galled since I am making such slow progress.



It is now sitting in a puddle of "plus gas" overnight to see if that helps.

I then went on to try to clean up the valves, I will leave them in this oven cleaner overnight, but don't have a good feeling of success. The main ingredient is Potassium Hydroxide. Does anyone have a suggestion of the best way to do this?


Cheers
Jim

1979 450SL - 2008 911 Turbo
Letzte Änderung: 5 Jahre 9 Monate her von Racediagnostics.

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5 Jahre 9 Monate her #263196 von Gullydeckel
Hi Jim,

the camshaft bearing looks not so fine, but it may be worth a try. I wonder how this damage starts, it's the bearing closest to the oil support. The highest stress probably has the bearing on the other end, where the load of the timing chain is on. On this side I would make no compromise.

When you press in the new guides using a threaded rod, you need to lubricate the thread very well. Change the nut from time to time, as well it’s necessary to prepare a couple of thread bar pieces in advance. The stress is very high so you need to change the parts from time to time. I used copper pipes to prevent the cylinder head from damage. The copper as well won’t be very durable.

Later on try to grind as little as possible from the valve seats! The more you grind, the more new shims you need and these little things are very expensive.

Greetings Martin

Ich bin jetzt in dem Alter wo ich meine Fehler zugeben könnte - wenn ich welche hätte
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5 Jahre 9 Monate her #263197 von Dieseldok
Hello Jim,

smoke resin remover works very well.
One Liter in a bowl and then let time do the job.

After two days most valves were pretty clean and needed only minor add cleaning.

Kind regards

JP
Folgende Benutzer bedankten sich: Racediagnostics

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5 Jahre 9 Monate her #263280 von Racediagnostics
Hi Martin, it is odd that the worst wear is at the back, however I have heard that this is not uncommon. The 350 engine that was fitted in my car when I bought it had very bad wear on the rear cam towers too.

Cheers
Jim

1979 450SL - 2008 911 Turbo

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